Archive Record
Metadata
Accession number |
1999.069 |
Catalog Number |
1999.069.016 |
Object Name |
Audiocassette |
Date |
10 Aug 1999 |
Title |
Sabbath, Thelma |
Scope & Content |
Original tape. Audio tape of oral history interview of Ms. Thelma Sabbath conducted by Nita Cole, Archivist, Bossier Parish Historical Center on August 10, 1999. Tape Four. Interview: Thelma Sabbath August 10, 1999 Tape 4, Side A, Counter 1-726 [Mrs. Cole] We're speaking with Ms. Thelma Sabbath who's going to read some stories with us. We're talking about spelling. You write phonetically because that's the way you hear it, which is fine. That's a perfectly acceptable way. In fact, when you have people retype your things, it's not as valuable as when you write it in your own hand. That's what's nice about having you read it, because you're reading it the way you speak it. There's a great deal to be said about it, in fact, I just cut out an article about someone who has written a book about the loss of the Southern regional language. That's why I'm so interested in your original writings because you are preserving a regional dialect and regional speech, which is disappearing. With television and radio, everybody sounds alike and you can't tell where people come from. So that's what's so interesting about what you're writing because it places you in a certain region and identifies you as being a resident and a member of that region. And that's what we're trying to preserve. That's wonderful! [Ms. Sabbath] Which one do you want me to start on, in the front of me I have something about . . . [Mrs. Cole] About the depression, is that what it is? [Ms. Sabbath] Well almost. I just got, In Those Days 1930, We had Hard Days, as so. That's where I'm starting at. [Mrs. Cole] And that's how you titled it? [Ms. Sabbath] Yes. We had hard days as so. We did not have many clothes to wear, but when they started to wear out, and they would do that soon, because we did not have good soap to wash them. All we had was lye soap that Mama and Big Mama made. And it was so strong, it would eat the clothes up if we used too much. I remember Mama patching our old worn out clothes. She would use any kind of old patch to patch with, neither color was alike. We did not throw nothing away and get more. People don't do that any more, patch clothes now, they throw them away and get new ones. It was not like that in my growing up days. My mother would patch the two older brothers overalls on the knees and also my father's because they were down on their knees picking cotton. They would wear big holes in their overalls crawling on the ground picking cotton. Men and boys back then would wear overalls. Women and girls did not wear pants. The only people wore such was men and boys. In the bible, Deuteronomy the 22nd chapter 5th verse reads, "The woman shall not wear that which is pertaining unto a man. Neither shall a man put on a woman's garment. For all that do, so are abomination unto the Lord." Back in those old hard growing up days, it was not anything like it is now. One thing for sure, it was not any Gerber (baby food) fixed for babies. When they got old enough to eat, I remember Mama would cook a big pot of greens or peas and put a big pan of cornbread and she would chew up some food and take it out of her mouth and put it into the baby's mouth. In mine's also, and it was good. [Mrs. Cole] That must have taken a long time to feed a baby by having to chew up the food first. [Ms. Sabbath] Yes, because it wasn't any Gerber's baby food. [Mrs. Cole] And no food processors then either. [Ms. Sabbath] No, and I tell you one thing, I tell you one thing, the chil'ren were more healthier. [Mrs. Cole] I bet so. Well, they didn't have preservatives and Gerber puts a ton of salt and sugar in their food. Probably your mother was cooking the fresh vegetables, she just put a moderate amount of salt. Just enough to taste. [Ms. Sabbath] Now this two go together. How does that sound? [Mrs. Cole] I like that. You hadn't written about that before. Well I don't know, because sometimes you say different things, sometimes you say some of the same things, but in different ways. You've been working hard. Look at all this you've got to read there. [Ms. Sabbath] I just didn't want to just keep on reading the same thing over and over. I didn't . . . I thought I'd try to throw in something new. Now, by Miss Thelma Sabbath, Hard Times Living on the farm in Gloster, Louisiana in 1930, it was plenty hard times with everybody. Our parents planted big gardens of all kinds of vegetables, but the ground would get so hard and dry especially the fields with cotton, corn, peas, and potatoes, sugar cane, and sorghum. (You heard tell of it?) But the good Lord brought us through all of that. Back in those days there was not any Social Security or Welfare or Food Stamps. So the people did not have nothing to depend on but the Lord. The Lord have blessed all the things to be. Social Security, Welfare, and Food Stamps, people have turned away from the Creator of all things and now serving other Gods. And that is the reason so much is happening in the world today. 2nd Chronicles, the 7th Chapter, and the 14th verse reads like this, "If my people which is called by my name shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven and will forgive their sins and will heal their land." People back in those days, many of them could not read or write, but the Lord took care of them because they was leaning and depending on Him. They would spell things like they sound. (I read this . . . I got this down here.) My sisters and brothers call me "Sister" because I was the oldest. Well how you like that? [Mrs. Cole] I like that. But tell me about sorghum, is that a plant? [Ms. Sabbath] Yes. That's something like sugar cane growing. You have seen sugar cane growing? [Mrs. Cole] I've seen sugar cane, but I've never seen sorghum. [Ms. Sabbath] Well it's sort of like . . . 'cause we had sorghum and sugar cane. Sorghum grows up tall and thick with those long blades on it and when it get to where it needed to be cut, we would go out there in the field hot like it is now, and cut down that sorghum. [Mrs. Cole] How do you get the syrup out of it? [Ms. Sabbath] Well, my father had a mill where he would have a fire to cook that syrup. They would run horses that pulled the mill and it would go around and around and put that sorghum in the mill, to run the juice out of it. [Mrs. Cole] And then you would press the juice out it. [Ms. Sabbath] Yes. Had a big old tub, a big old pot sitting under there where the juice would come in. [Mrs. Cole] And then he'd cook it after it came out. Now, you strip the leaves from it and you get something that looks like sugar cane? You get a stalk and it looks like sugar cane? [Ms. Sabbath] Yes. [Mrs. Cole] But he grew sorghum and sugar cane. I suppose sorghum probably did better up here than sugar cane. [Ms. Sabbath] Yes, I guess it did. He would do the sugar cane the same way; grind the juice out it and cook it into syrup. Like you cooking jelly. [Mrs. Cole] Did he mixed the two of them together? [Ms. Sabbath] No, no. [Mrs. Cole] Kept them separate? [Ms. Sabbath] Separate. [Mrs. Cole] 'Cause sugar cane tasted better than sorghum. [Ms. Sabbath] You are right about that. [Mrs. Cole] Is sorghum not as sweet, 'cause I don't think I've ever eaten it. [Ms. Sabbath] It's sweet if he would cook it and just have buckets and buckets of sorghum syrup. [Mrs. Cole] And did he sell any of it? [Ms. Sabbath] No. [Mrs. Cole] No. You just used it for yourselves? [Ms. Sabbath] Used it ourselves 'cause Mama would cook them great big old biscuits in the morning. And my brother Booker, what I showed you (his photograph), he would take one biscuit and eat up a gallon of syrup. [Mrs. Cole] He had a sweet tooth. (laughing) [Ms. Sabbath] Yes and I ate so much of it, syrup, when I was growing up it gave me heart burn. [Mrs. Cole] Did you get rock candy out of the bottom of it or did you use it too fast? [Ms. Sabbath] Sometimes if it stayed long enough it would. [Mrs. Cole] I had another lady that told me that they would wait for it to turn to candy. But I'm thinking it probably wouldn't last long enough, but I guess if you put it in a big enough . . . [Ms. Sabbath] Big old bucket. [Mrs. Cole] Yeah, a big old bucket, then it would do that. But if you used a smaller bucket, you'd be using it too fast, particularly if Booker is going through all of it. [Ms. Sabbath] We would have syrup to last all that year and it would be turned dark when you saw it. But, dark as I don't know what. [Mrs. Cole] Yeah, like a dark mahogany color. [Ms. Sabbath] Yes. It would turn black. But we would eat it, it was good. Mama, I remember . . . it wasn't sugar, it wasn't plenty but she would make molasses bread. Well, just about everything she was using, it if wasn't that sorghum syrup it was sugar cane as a sweetener. 'Cause I remember pickin' up a grater and gratin' sweet potatos and she would put some of that in there and make sweet potato pudding, I guess. But after all that cooking, she would do -- no recipes, she would just . . . neither one of us, neither one of us children can't fix it to taste like. . . [Mrs. Cole] But you don't have home-made sorghum syrup, that's probably why. [Ms. Sabbath] Can't fix it to taste like she fixed it. [Mrs. Cole] 'Cause if you're using refined sugar, it's not going to taste nearly the same. [Ms. Sabbath] No. I remember when she used to fix chicken and dressing. She would have more onions than she would the cornbread. You know, I don't think people do that, but back then the people stuff their dressing on the inside of it. [Mrs. Cole] But she was also cooking on a wood stove and that will make the difference too. [Ms. Sabbath] Yes, that was good too. And we used to have, once a year, called it the Big Meeting Closing at the church, went out there for baptizing. Baptizing in a great big old pond, not on the inside, on the outside. [Mrs. Cole] Near the church? Was the pond near the church or did you had to walk to get to it? [Ms. Sabbath] No. We would get in wagons, it wasn't any pond there, we'd get on the wagons and ride on down there to the baptizing pool. [Mrs. Cole] And it would be the same place all the time? [Ms. Sabbath] Yes. When the preacher got through baptizing all those people, the water would be muddy. [Mrs. Cole] But just once a year you did that? And this in your good clothes you did that? [Ms. Sabbath] No, we had. . . they put on some old robes. [Mrs. Cole] They let you put on a little robe or something so you wouldn't mess up your clothes. [Ms. Sabbath] Somethin' to tie your head . . . Then we'd have a big … After the church service we'd have, they called it "dinner on the ground." We had some people would bring dinner, in trunks. When I looked at that trunk in there (on display at the History Center) I thought about that. Trunks of food, all kind of good food. [Mrs. Cole] It would be there at the pond or when you got back to the church? [Ms. Sabbath] No, it would be at the church. And it wasn't any electricity either, just great big old shade trees. And do you know they would set that food, let it stay in the wagons with people ridin' in it, all day long under those shade trees. Don't you know that food didn't spoil. [Mrs. Cole] It was probably still warm when it went in there. [Ms. Sabbath] Now, you can't leave dressing out 30 minutes, you have to throw it away. [Mrs. Cole] Well, they probably took it right out of the oven, so just like keeping it in a warming oven all morning. [Ms. Sabbath] And it didn't spoil either. [Mrs. Cole] And they're not using things with preservatives or anything like that. [Ms. Sabbath] That preservatives stuff make it spoil quicker. We didn't have a refrigerator to put it in no way. Sometimes we'd get a big old 50 pounds of ice, the block, wrap it up in some old rags or old cotton sacks, that was fine. [Mrs. Cole] Did you make ice cream when you got ice? [Ms. Sabbath] Yes. If Daddy was there to make it . . . ice cream with a handle you turned. [Mrs. Cole] . . . with a crank. 'cause you probably had lots of fruit, peaches and that kind of stuff. And you had tons of milk. [Ms. Sabbath] Oh yes, and butter. [Mrs. Cole] That was your job, milking the cow? [Ms. Sabbath] Milking the cow, yes. Sometimes they would have. . . .on one of their tits, we call them, would be a sore, it had a sore on it and I wouldn't know it. And I put my hand on there and she'd kick that bucket of milk outa my hand. [Mrs. Cole] How many cows did you have ? [Ms. Sabbath] A whole lot of them and that was my job. [Mrs. Cole] And you had to do all of the cows by yourself? [Ms. Sabbath] Yes. that was my job. [Mrs. Cole] That's makes the difference then when you're the only one to milk the cows. Do you milk them once a day or twice a day? [Ms. Sabbath] Once a day. [Mrs. Cole] But it's got to be everyday. [Ms. Sabbath] In the morning, early in the morning. I'm starting this one about: Big Mama, the Things that She Told in her Lifetime: Many, many years ago I heard Big Mama would often speak about there was not any banks. So the people that did get a little money and some did, because some of the people I can remember raised a lot of cows and sheeps, and chickens and would sell them and would get a good bit of money for them. So it was not banks to put their money in for safe keeping. They would dig big deep holes in their back yards, put their money in jars and bury it in the hole that they had dug for safe keeping. Big Mama also told us sometimes the people's money would stay buried so long until they would forget where it was buried. Times was hard back in those days. People did not have nothing and most of them did not know nothing. Most of them could not read or write. A lot of times they would get cheated out of everything, Big mama would tell us. So you see, the good Lord have brought his people a mighty long ways, but the poor families stayed together. How you like that? [Mrs. Cole] I like that. I was wondering how they would remember because they couldn't put anything to mark it there, 'cause then somebody would know . . . [Ms. Sabbath] No, they didn't put nothing. [Mrs. Cole] And then if you used like a tree or something, I could see how I would forget what tree I'd put it under. [Ms. Sabbath] Like I said, most of them, they couldn't read and write. I got two more and that's going to be the end of it. They sound pretty good? [Mrs. Cole] They do sound good. I'm glad you're writing about Big Mama. [Ms. Sabbath] Here, you wanted the photograph. I was trying to remember something about her. [Mrs. Cole] And it's hard when you started thinking about her. [Ms. Sabbath] Yes, trying to remember, because like I told you once, we wasn't . . . she would come to visit us, but she stayed with Aunt Sissy and Mabel, 'cause Mabel was the only one. [Mrs. Cole] Yes, she needed her help. And also 'cause there was too many at your house. [Ms. Sabbath] And she would stayed with Mama. Aunt Sissy is the only one of Mama's sister's . . . I don't know nothing about the brother. I can remember she lived with her back in those days. And I told you once, Mama stayed sick a whole lot. And it wasn't any doctors or hospitals. It was one doctor maybe and that doctor would come . . . it was house calls. The doctor would come in homes. They don't anymore now because it's hospitals. Big Mama would try to do the best she could for her with what she knew to do. But Aunt Sissy, all of them . . . I don't know what happen to all of Mama's . . . I don't know what happened to them, they all was sick and they didn't live very long. I don't know whether it was a disease, I don't know what it was . . . [Mrs. Cole] It could have been that they just died younger. [Ms. Sabbath] . . . 'caused them to didn't live long. Most of them, all of them except Sissy, was cripple. But Mama was cripple in one of her hands. [Mrs. Cole] And you don't know how she got that way, whether it was a accident or . . . [Ms. Sabbath] No I don't know. When I got old enough to know, she was like that. I do remember she said her sister, her name was Nettie, we called her "Suh". I can remember a little bitty about her and she couldn't walk. We called her "Suh". [Mrs. Cole] "Suh ??" [Ms. Sabbath] She was named Nettie. We called her . . .you know people use a lot of nicknames. "Suh" don't touch Nettie nowhere. Nettie, the names don't go together at all. [Mrs. Cole] Well your mother's hand, was it the same size as her other hand and she just couldn't move it? [Ms. Sabbath] Yes, she could move it, but . . . [Mrs. Cole] But it was like it had broken? [Ms. Sabbath] Yes, a big knot here. [Mrs. Cole] On her wrist, she had a knot? [Ms. Sabbath] She could use it. But when she got mad at us, she would take that crippled hand and knock us across the street, across the road. It wasn't any streets. [Mrs. Cole] Do you know how old Big Mama was when she passed? [Ms. Sabbath] I sure don't. [Mrs. Cole] Do you remember how old you were? Were you still a child or . . . [Ms. Sabbath] Not right now, I can't remember how old I was. Like I told you once, back in those days, people weren't keepin' up with that. [Mrs. Cole] And your grandfather Toby, if Big Mama came and stayed, where was he? [Ms. Sabbath] I don't know. I believe he died at a early age. We don't know anything about him. [Mrs. Cole] That would make sense then that she was staying with one of her daughters. [Ms. Sabbath] We just don't know anything about him. Like I said, that family just died out. I don't know what that was. You know it wasn't no doctors to go to for their health or wasn't any medications then. [Mrs. Cole] No, and it might not have been a good idea for them to go to the hospital anyway. In fact, generally back then you went to the hospital when it was too late for them to do anything else for you anyway. You just went there to die. [Ms. Sabbath] Wasn't any hospitals. I don't remember any hospitals. I remember a doctor used to come and make those house calls with their little black bag. [Mrs. Cole] Shreveport was probably the closest that would have a hospital, but there wasn't anything in the county out there. [Ms. Sabbath] I just don't know how those poor people, I just don't know how they . . .well like I said, the Lord will show the way. But midwives, they delivered the babies. And I'm wondering, if any of them had to have medication or surgery, I don't know who gave them that. [Mrs. Cole] When your first child was born, did you have a midwife? [Ms. Sabbath] Oh no. I was . . . it was a hospital. [Mrs. Cole] You were in the hospital? No, not for your first one. [Ms. Sabbath] Sure was. You're right. [Mrs. Cole] Yes, so couldn't been, either there was so much pain you don't remember or there couldn't been any pain cause you don't remember that either. [Ms. Sabbath] I'm sure it was pain. Years just go by. . . back then, if people had the knowledge what they have now, they would keep track of all that. [Mrs. Cole] See that's what we're trying to do, is to get people to keep track of it. [Ms. Sabbath] But they didn't so, all of that old things what was way back, back just passed, it's gone. [Mrs. Cole] That's why we're trying to get you to remember about Big Mama, because that links to even before your time. [Ms. Sabbath] Yes, 'cause wasn't any birth certificates. I don't know how . . . what they done. A lot of times I just started thinking way back, way back, as far as I can. How did they . . . it wasn't any birth certificates. [Mrs. Cole] So you don't have your own birth certificate? [Ms. Sabbath] I have but I had to send off to get mine. [Mrs. Cole] But you didn't have any papers from your parents or anything like that? [Ms. Sabbath] No. I had to send to Baton Rouge and get mine. I guess Baton Rouge must be the headquarters. [Mrs. Cole] They keep them for the state. [Ms. Sabbath] It would be good, just good, if I just knew all of that way back. It would just really be good and I wished I did. [Mrs. Cole] Well, the Genealogy Society can help you with that. The problem is with black history it's not well documented and it's really difficult to research. [Ms. Sabbath] I know it is. That's what everybody says. A lot of people say it is hard, 'cause I guess they move around, change they name. That really messes you up. [Mrs. Cole] Have you tried looking in the Census records to see if you can find any of your family? They might be in there. [Ms. Sabbath] One time I did on the Sabbath side, but that's been quite a while. And those names weren't spelled right. [Mrs. Cole] Oh yes, they're never spelled right. [Ms. Sabbath] Is that right? [Mrs. Cole] Oh yes. They're always misspelled, so you have to kind of look at the Sabbith and Sobboth, you have to look at all different kinds of spellings, because it's not so much they didn't know how to spell it, but they can't read the handwriting and so they just guess when they put those indexes together. I want to read this two left. You like that what I've already read? [Mrs. Cole] Yes. I do, I like those. [Ms. Sabbath] Big Mama My Big Mama raised a lot of chickens, turkeys, ducks, and geese. She would give Mama a turkey for Thanksgiving and a goose for Christmas. I can remember in Big Mama's old house, the kitchen was not built onto the house. We had to go out of the house to get to the kitchen. She also had a coffee grinder in her kitchen. She bought coffee beans, put them in a skillet on the stove and cooked them, then put the coffee beans in the coffee grinder. After they finished grinding, she would make a pot of coffee. I don't know what brand it was, just coffee, all I know. Also Big Mama made homemade bread. She would mix everything together -- flour and yeast, everything that went in it, put it in a big pan, because it was not any bowls in those days and set it in the hot sun and let it rise. That sound pretty good? [Mrs. Cole] Yes, that does sound pretty good. Now there was something I wanted to ask you about that. Oh, when she roasted her coffee, did she just roast it in the iron skillet or did she put any water in it? [Ms. Sabbath] No, it's like you cook peanuts. [Mrs. Cole] More like pecans or something. And just shake it on the stove? [Ms. Sabbath] Or stir it. [Mrs. Cole] I bet that was good. [Ms. Sabbath] I don't know the name of it. It wasn't Maxwell. [Mrs. Cole] Well she probably just bought the raw beans. [Ms. Sabbath] She did. [Mrs. Cole] Did you drink coffee with her or were you allowed to drink coffee? [Ms. Sabbath] I can't remember whether I drank coffee or not. I know it was smelling mighty good. [Mrs. Cole] I bet. [Ms. Sabbath] You can't smell it now. [Mrs. Cole] That's cause the beans are ground years ago before they go into that package. [Ms. Sabbath] You remember that? [Mrs. Cole] I do because my parents were big coffee drinkers. We started off with coffeemilk as children. They scalded milk and it was more milk with coffee in it, unlike coffee with a little milk in it. We drank that every morning for breakfast. In the winter time particularly because my mother wasn't going to give us hot chocolate for breakfast. That's what you had for dessert. So we had parched coffee. [Ms. Sabbath] Those was some good old days back there. They was hard days, but it was good old days. [Mrs. Cole] I was just curious if that what you all had or did you just have warm milk or something for breakfast? [Ms. Sabbath] Maybe so, I don't know, it's been so long, yes, I guess we did. That or water, one. I'll let that be the end of that one. That's enough of that. [Mrs. Cole] That's a good one. [Ms. Sabbath] That's a good one? [Mrs. Cole] Yes it is a good one. You've got one more? [Ms. Sabbath] This is something about slavery and some other things from Big Mama. I Can Remember Slavery In slavery time the people call the boss "ole moss'er." "Ole moss'er" was very hard on them. They could not do anything but work very, very hard. The people had to do what "ole moss'er" say do. They was not allowed to go to church. Big Mama also told us they worked down on their knees crawling on the hard ground picking cotton. Sometimes the ground would be so very hard until their knees would start to bleeding, but they could not stop. They would be picking cotton, crawling and knees bleeding, singing "I'd Rather Be Dead And In My Grave Than To Be A Slave." But the good Lord was right there to help bare their heavy load. The Lord could do much greater things than "ole moss'er." Give them comfort and healed all of their wounds. [Mrs. Cole] I like that. Did she talk much about the old times, Big Mama? Do you remember that she would talk about it very often? [Ms. Sabbath] Yes, the little I can remember, about how the people, they couldn't go to church. I thought I had wrote that down here somewhere. [Mrs. Cole] Yes I think you told me that the last time how they didn't go to church and that would have been what her mother had told her because she certainly would have been born after slavery. [Ms. Sabbath] How they wanted to go to church and they couldn't go to church. She wasn't allowed to go church to worship. The only time they could go to church, they would have to slip off when he wasn't there. They would hide their bibles up under . . . bury them under the ground where he wouldn't see them. [Mrs. Cole] Because they weren't allowed to read, they weren't suppose to read. [Ms. Sabbath] They wasn't allowed to worship the Lord. [Mrs. Cole] Do you remember if Big Mama ever talked about whether or not her parents could read or whether or not they had a bible? [Ms. Sabbath] Oh no, I don't have anything about her. [Mrs. Cole] That's interesting that she remembers them telling her stories. [Ms. Sabbath] Yes, well that ends it. [Mrs. Cole] Well, you'll be writing some more before too long I'm sure. Thank you for reading for us. The End. |
People |
Sabbath, Thelma |
Search Terms |
Oral History |
Lexicon category |
6: T&E For Communication |
Interview date |
1999-08-10 |
Interviewer |
Nita Cole |
Medium |
Plastic |
Recording media |
Cassette Tape |
Lexicon sub-category |
Sound Communication T&E |
Inventoried date |
2025-06-12 |